How can you transition between roles while staying true to your values? This week’s guest, Deb Schwerman, demonstrates that a passion for your work and industry can reinforce those values, no matter your position. As the current Executive Director of the Wisconsin Asphalt Pavement Association, she shares her journey—from inspecting asphalt in the field and testing samples in the lab to leading industry-wide initiatives. Her willingness to embrace every opportunity and forward-thinking perspective shows that leadership is shaped by the journey, not just the destination. Be inspired by Deb’s path, passion, and purpose. Listen now!
Welcome to the podcast, Debbie. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Hi, thank you very much. My name is Debbie Schwarman and I'm the Executive Director of the Wisconsin Asphalt Pavement Association. I've been there for a little over a decade now. Prior to assuming that role, I was the Director of Engineering for the Association as well. That leads into the conversation of having different perspectives and wearing different hats.
What initially drew you into the engineering field or into the asphalt industry?
When I went to college, I knew that I wanted to do something outdoors. I knew that I wanted to be outside. I didn't necessarily want a desk job. So that took me into the engineering field, but I actually started in mining engineering. Having grown up in West Virginia, coal mining was just such a big part of the state and the workers and everything that happened there. So I went into mining engineering, and they actually canceled the program my first-year in. So I thought, ‘oh boy, now what am I going to do?’
They opened up a civil engineering opportunity. So it was like, ‘okay, all of my credits will transfer, I'll go that route.’ Then it just so happened that I spent the summer working with the Department of Highways, not as an intern, but more with the road crews out there. So I flagged traffic, flushed out culverts, picked up roadkill, all those fun things that you get to do when you're a college kid. Even then it was high school with the Department of Highways. Once I got to be an intern at the Department of Highways in West Virginia, I got to be part of the inspection team, and it just opened up my eyes to the world, and specifically asphalt. The way that the Department was set up was, instead of being an engineer who knew a little bit about every project,they were very deliberate. You just needed to know asphalt. So I was specifically an asphalt inspector. I would see anywhere from 14 to 18 different projects throughout the summer. We did projects of all different kinds from overlays to full depth reconstruction all over the state. That was a really unique experience specific to asphalt and then I was hooked!
I kept coming back every year all through college and by my last summer I was fascinated with the testing side of it. People would be out there with their nuclear density gauges, somebody would be collecting samples and testing at the plant. So I'd been there for several years and they were really in need of finding technicians. So I said, ‘sure I'll go’ and they sent me to school. I got my nuclear density certification, and that was the first taste I got a plant. Again, I knew I was hooked. I got bit by the bug and now, thirty plus years later, here I am. I literally started right out on the pavement, made my way into the laboratory.
It just so happened to be the transition from the Marshall Method to the Superpave method. So that really was a huge step for me. I left and I got a permanent job. I went for the private sector. I worked for a company in Pennsylvania. They were very progressive, and they just said, ‘You know what? They've got this new stuff called Superpave and we want you to know everything there is to know about it because it's such a big leap that. It's brand new. You need to just go learn everything you can.’ So I did. They sent me to every training course that they could find in the surrounding states. I tried my best to learn Superpave so I felt like when I walked into a lab with people with 15, 20 years of experience, I knew as much or more than they did, moving into the Superpave technology. I could get my feet wet and again, through all my certifications. I already knew the Marshall Method, but could really run with Superpave and I did. I stayed in the private sector for quite a while and then moved to Wisconsin and started out with the Department of Transportation there. Then went back to the private sector and then back again to the Department. I went to work for the bureau and then landed at the Association, and this is home for me. This is where I will stay.
What experiences have you had that have shaped how you become a better leader?
I think a lot of it is mimicking what I've seen and investing into people the way that other people had invested in me. I feel like I've been really fortunate and blessed that people were willing to give me an opportunity to lead and to be in those roles, even if it wasn't necessarily, you know, the executive director role, but to be in charge of a lab or to be in charge of staff or personnel. I feel like you just gain when you want to give back to what other people have given you and really invest in the people. So I really try to do that and really work on relationships. Just knowing what you can glean from other people to better yourself and to make other people a better version of themselves.
Could you identify some of the different skills you've identified working in the private and public sector?
For me personally, having worn different hats, being able to keep that perspective. I am opinionated, and I definitely have my beliefs and what I feel very strongly and passionate about, but, I also want to keep in mind that you not only have a responsibility, there are different perspectives to consider. The owners might have a different perspective to the customer and then also us as industry. So it's being able to put yourself in their shoes and understand the perspective that they're coming from that I think can make you better at your role and also more effective. You get to a point where no one's going to change your mind. You know, no one's necessarily going to come in and change my mind on something if I feel super strongly about it. But being able to have an understanding and to be able to one, talk about it peacefully and come to a consensus and a conclusion if you're on complete opposite sides of the spectrum, I think is really important.
If I go back a little bit to the previous question that we were talking about. I think one of the things that I really love about this industry and what drew me to the industry was I always felt like we have strived to just be better and better all the time. I feel like we set the bar. Then we get close to that bar, we meet the bar, and we move the bar, and we just keep pushing ourselves to be better and better. Whether it's efficiencies or innovation, technologies, whatever it might be. That was a huge draw to really pull me into this industry and to keep me here. I mean, it's so accurate. Even for today, you just want to keep learning, And I feel like, again, we've been down this path for multiple decades, but I just want to continue learning ‘cause there's just so much and there's so much we still have to do. I just find that so exciting and again, a reason why I love this industry.
In your mind, what differentiates a good leader from a great leader?
I have been blessed with many good leaders, so I will say that I have not had the misfortune of having very bad ones. There is a difference for sure, and I think those great leaders, for me personally, I thought cared beyond the job. Beyond the progress of what we were doing and what goal we were trying to achieve. They cared all the way around, cared about the human aspect of us, cared personally as much as professionally, and grew that. I think some of that also comes back to not so much as accolades or pats on the back, but being able to say thank you and recognizing your efforts in some way or another. They don't have to be big, but just knowing that you're appreciated and that you matter and that you're doing a good job and being genuine about it. I think that those leaders, lead by example, and it's natural to them. They're just naturally genuine, naturally who they are.
And then that makes me want to be that same type of leader. Willing to admit when you're wrong, and willing to go to bat for you in the decision that you made and stand behind you, even if they need to make some corrective action along the way. I think those are some of the leadership qualities that I've really appreciated as I've progressed throughout my career.
What personal and professional experiences can you attribute to shaping your leadership style?
I think all of us, in some way shape or form are who we are based off the walk that we've had to walk, the path that we've had to lead. Sometimes it's always, or not always, that golden, perfect, smooth path. It is bumpy, and there are some obstacles to overcome. I think from a leadership style, it's those that were willing to invest in the people and having been on that receiving end, that really made a difference in my life. That taught me to not take so much for granted and really make sure that I pass that along to others and try to bring others through. Again, make them the best that they can be and whatever their goals are, you know, I might want to keep them with me because they're a great employee, but if they have aspirations and visions to do other things, I want to support them in that journey 'cause that's what people have done for me. I'd like to think that I was a really good worker bee and I was really great at getting the job done, but it was the fact that they saw that I wanted to be a little bit more than that and evolve from that. They were willing to take a chance on me and I'd like to do the same and like to think that I do that for others.
Can you share a time where you faced like a significant challenge or failure as a leader? How did you navigate that and what did you learn from it?
I definitely had some failures and some bumps in the road without a doubt. I think notably it's just been when you haven't met the mark, you know. There's the expectation of ‘this is the way we want things done. This is the way it's going to be delivered, and you didn't meet the mark.’ Again, I am very passionate and very driven about my beliefs and the way I see things and the way that I like to do things. That's not necessarily the way other people intend them to be. So, I've had those talkings to say, ‘Hey, go back and try that again. That really isn't what we're looking for.’ And it's hard to do and it's a struggle, but I think it makes you better at recognizing that the way you do things and your comfort level isn't necessarily others. So, being able to recognize that. Hit that mark for those people that think a little bit differently than you do, in terms of styles, and even goals, of what the expectation is.
What is one piece of advice a listener should be thinking about as they're considering ways to gain more leadership responsibilities or advance in their careers in our industry?
There's a couple things. I think one, keep working hard, keep striving to be as good as you can be. Don't be afraid to ask questions, and don't be afraid to go for that job, or to ask and inquire about it. Just be eager to learn because it's so contagious and it's so inviting. I think about the people that I surround myself with and like to glean things from others. They’re very well educated and they're just as passionate about this industry as I am,but still eager to learn and do that next thing and discover that next road for us to go down. I think that's very contagious. But again, just be willing to put yourself out there. Be willing to have those tough conversations, and ask, don't ever be afraid to ask to do more. There's so much out there and so many different paths that we can go down and find successes along the way. A lot of people in this industry are eager to help with that. There's a lot of mentors and a lot of places and opportunities to find other paths and other things that people would like to do if they want to climb that ladder and do something different.
What's one thing you learned from one of the leaders that you work with that changed the way you think, that changed the way you look at people, or the way that you run the association?
I think one thing, and maybe not so specific to one individual, but I think just learning to pay forward and never burn a bridge. Putting in that extra effort and that energy, even if you don't even think it's your job or your role, tends to always come back in spades. That's something that I have learned from my members is just keep going, keep striving, keep asking, and just really vesting in the people in this industry. 'Cause when we need to, we all come together collectively. We talk about bid day, we might be enemies at the table, so to speak, but the second that's done, we really pull together as a team. We come together as an industry to constantly strive to be better. That again, is just very contagious and it's just such a positive, healthy attitude. We're all in this together and I've been very grateful and blessed for those that are willing to talk about things and not keep them proprietary, not just keep it to themselves for what's good for them, but to make it great for all of us. That's been a blessing from the association perspective that I didn't think I ever knew was quite as solid as it is until I got into this role. Members really come together for the common good and the greater good of the industry, and I think that's just fantastic.
We're all in this together and I've been very grateful and blessed for those that are willing to talk about things and not keep them proprietary, not just keep it to themselves for what's good for them, but to make it great for all of us. That's been a blessing from the association perspective that I didn't think I ever knew was quite as solid as it is until I got into this role. Members really come together for the common good and the greater good of the industry, and I think that's just fantastic.
When you talk about like the career path or journey to where you're at today, would you say your path is what you pictured?
I definitely did not envision this path for myself. Not that I ever had a clear path or direction of where I wanted to be or where I want to get to. So for me, it was a series of doors that opened along the way, and some that I didn't even know were doors at the time. It was just general conversation and led to the path that I went down. Again, it's always been other people who are willing to make that opportunity happen or to have that conversation of just, ‘Hey, do you happen to know anyone who would be interested in this?’ Or something along those lines. Some of it has even been creating your own position or just melding the two of we need some quality control aspect, but we need the manager aspect, and we also need a whole other part of the coin that just you make the job your own. And I feel like that's one of the things that the association has allowed me to do is to make the job my own. Transitioning between my former role as a Director of Engineering and my current role as the Executive, we're a one person association at the moment, so it's being able to merge those and hopefully do it successfully, until we come up with a different plan, a different opportunity.