Successful leadership isn’t just about making decisions—it’s about building healthy relationships within and outside your organization. For this week’s episode, Audrey Copeland returns to the studio to lead a conversation with Christine Shaw, President and CEO of Naylor Association Solutions, a company that has partnered with NAPA for over 20 years. Together, they explore how partnerships, humility, and visibility shape effective leadership. Christine shares how great leaders acknowledge their blind spots, build strong teams, and seek continuous growth—both for themselves and the organizations they serve.
Published April 1 2025
Could you share your journey to becoming a CEO and your journey into leadership, some of the key things that happened along the way.
Absolutely. So first of all, Audrey, thank you so much for having me as a guest. We're very grateful for the partnership. It's a question a lot of CEOs like yourself and I get asked is 'what was your journey into it?' And like many, it happens by a lot of things you do and what you pay attention to throughout your career. There's very few, I think that wake up and say, ‘I want to be CEO of an association,’ but rather you start to realize on your career journey the things that you become good at and what you're comfortable doing. You also stretch yourself for opportunities that you may not think you're right for, but you go for it and you are constantly learning. I think the one characteristic trait that successful leaders share is constantly being curious and having a willingness to listen and learn.
The Reader's Digest version is, I started off in advertising and marketing, which is probably not surprising as to why I'm here. Then along the way, what I realized is I really enjoyed solving problems and when you're faced with problems and you can bring solutions that help grow your client or partner's business, you enjoy a very fruitful relationship. So throughout my career, I did very well at that part of the job and then developed leadership skills along the way. Some of that Audrey, came from discovering that I had some weaknesses there. And I'm the type of person where if I have a weakness, I want to make it a strength. So, throughout my career, as I looked at things that I was excelling at and things I needed to improve on, I constantly invested time, whether it was executive coaching.
I was fortunate enough to work at a company called Penwell, which was a large media company for 18 years. Then that led me to a journey of becoming a Senior Vice President and Division Leader for a company in New York City, which ultimately led me to my CEO opportunities. One of the reasons I'm in the association space is I love working with mission-based organizations and companies and that center around community and purpose, and there's no other industry like the association space where each specific association is focused on community and the mission specific to that association need needs. Being able to partner with companies like NAPA and help create non-dues revenue to have sustainability is at the heart of what we do and what I love being able to provide for our Naylor clients like yours.
Could you share something that stretched you or an area of weakness that you really embraced and grew into.
Absolutely. If I think to in my early 30s, when I was at the company I described Penwell. It was a very militant-based leadership style company, which at that time and at that place, was working. As I evolved and took on more leadership responsibilities, I realized that the way of the world had shifted, that skillset and style was not as effective. And what I had to listen to, which is hard, is feedback around adjusting my style and approach so that people did not feel intimidated or threatened and that you did more listening and some empathy.
I think one thing that people don't understand is all good leaders, or anyone who excels at anything in their career, you need to be willing to be humble enough to say, ‘this is not my strength and I want help’ and that comes in the form of coaching, peer groups, mentorship, sponsorship. And so when I think about being in my early 30s, I was fortunate enough to have a company who saw the talent I brought to the table in other areas and they saw the potential in me from a leadership sense so they were willing to invest and I was willing to accept that I needed to do this, and that was a pivotal moment which allowed me to grow. Otherwise, I could have been stuck. I could have been limited, and the other important thing too, Audrey, and I think that women, it's been statistically proven do this more is, we do not believe if we don't fit every single skill that we're worthy of the opportunity. So some of it is going out on a limb and taking a risk, but not trying to fake your way into it. Just say, ‘I'm good at eight of these 10 things. I have two of them I'm not so good at, but here's my track record for growing and learning and accomplishing.’
And so with the right support, I can do that. One thing I'm really good at is acknowledging your weak spot and hiring talent in your team that supplements it. If you think about the quarterback in the blind spot, you need that protection, right? And so always surrounding yourself with talent on the team, As a leader, the most important thing is that you don't believe it's up to you to do everything, but you hire good people and empower them to do the parts that they're good at and you invite them to the table in the process to do that alongside you.
Let's talk about Naylor. Tell me about how many associations Naylor works with, what are the good qualities of a good association besides just being mission-based, and how are you helping create those communities in partnership with those associations?
So, first of all, Naylor currently works with a little more than 1500 associations, and they range in all sorts of industries. In terms of what makes a good partner, it's a couple of things. One, it starts with if they have a problem that they need to solve. Most of it centers around member engagement and retaining and growing the membership, but also adding value to that membership. It's not about numbers. It's about the quality and how the membership feels about the value. What we do well is we create services and solutions around member engagement that could include things like an A.I. Newsletter, which we do with you, or a buyer's guide or a magazine or digital environment or show. In terms of what makes a good partner is sometimes hard because at the end of the day, we are a vendor, but when you treat us like a partner and there's that trust, it starts with building trust with the association and Naylor, right? It starts with us listening to what your needs are. And the association being willing to be open and sometimes humble about what they're good at what they're not good at. We love to start with data and insights, like we want to understand, get under the hood: what are the true pain points that you have or your members have? What did they need to feel good about it? So when we start with first seeking to understand the problem, seeking to understand the needs of the membership, and where they feel that they have a void, whether it's information, et cetera, and then creating solutions that are specific to those needs rather than generic.
Partners like NAPA are the ones I think about the work we've done, it starts with, for example, a gap analysis where we come in and work with you to understand, like, ‘Where are there gaps? Where could we do better and strengthen the partnership?’ Because by doing that, we strengthen the membership and at the end of the day, that's what it's all about. And the other thing too, Audrey, I would say is being flexible. We all agree, we can get caught up in the marketing term being a focus group of one meaning we think we know the answer or we think we know what's on people's mind. My goodness ask, because you're going to get the right information if you ask and don't assume. And so associations that are willing to be open with their membership and say ‘ask us what we're doing right or wrong. Ask what we need that makes a much better relationship and partnership and solution.
And a lot of times we do it too. We skip that step, and we think we get fed all kinds of information and then we think we know the answer and we try to provide our answers. So, it starts with seeking to understand and working together and building that trust in the partnership.
I would love to hear your perspective from when you come into a new organization and when you're looking at some of these possible friction points or areas of weakness; how do you approach that as a leader?
It's worth acknowledging, Audrey, because I think it's important to acknowledge as leaders that there are times when complacency sets in, especially when you're doing the same thing over and over and it causes unintentional friction. What I have found and this is even if you think about personal relationships, whatever, right? You get comfortable, you forget to do the little things. And so what you first have to ask yourself is it that or did the relationship just turn sour? Because if you don't correct it and seek to understand, you're just going to repeat those behaviors in the next relationship, whether it's a vendor or personal. So in terms of how I practice as a leader, the very first thing I do is ask the employees. I do employee surveys. I want to know what's on their mind. What are they frustrated with? What they're not frustrated with. I'm always transparent and say, ‘I'm not going to be able to solve every problem or fix everything you're unhappy about, but I'll be transparent about what I can and can't do.’ And same with customers. In fact, we have a new leader in communications who's been phenomenal, Jennifer Pierce. I said, the one thing I do when I first start in these types of roles is do a customer listening tour. It's not for me to go in and sell anything, but rather what are we doing?
And one thing that's hard to do, but when you get really good at it, it really benefits both parties, is to not get defensive, to listen with the intent here and not to react. That's one of the hardest things to practice. It takes a real discipline mindset and I'm not always perfect at it. I think what's important as leaders of companies, whether you're talking about your employee base or customer base is that be willing to ask the questions, be willing to hear and be willing to be humble and acknowledge and then solve it. So then what's the action you're going to take and we're fortunate in the case with NAPA, sometimes it's a good lesson for all of us. Hey we got complacent, one thing that we did do is we started a 12 month rollback where 12 months ahead of renewals, we're always checking in, but I like to ask the question, ‘If it were today, would you renew with us? Why or why not?’ And it gives us time to solve it so that we're not coming into a crisis situation. And so again, going back to whether that's your employee base, whether it's your vendor base or your customer base, that constant communication and reciprocity and listening and giving is key to success.
What kind of strategies or practices does Naylor, or even yourself, do to build future talent and future leaders?
It's a great question and it's funny because right now I'm smiling as I just came out of a meeting room with a lot of really young, great, raw, talented people who've come into our organization. Number one, give them the chance to learn and do. Accept that they're going to make mistakes, but that's part of the learning journey. So, empower them, get them into the throes of it, provide them the training and the support they need, and also to constantly be checking in. The worst thing, whether you're a manager, CEO, or leader, is that it's a surprise for them or you that it's not working out. And when that happens, it's because there isn't open communication or ongoing feedback. I don't believe an employee review is an annual process. I think it's a weekly, right? And so, it's your interactions, it's your daily, and you have to be willing in moments to either give input or feedback or call out the things that they're doing. For example, we have a new team of people in our business development and they got off at first, there was some training that had to happen. So, it's frustrating for them, frustrating for us. And we finally put them in a coaching environment with a person who's been very successful. She’s taken over their day-to-day journey and they're crushing it. So I just walked by their desk this morning. I'm like ‘Oh my God, you guys are really nailing it. This is awesome.’ Their faces were lit up. They're so happy. And I'm like, I can't wait until every desk in this area is full of people just like you.
So it's a good balance of give and take, make sure you're giving the improvement areas, the areas of development, but also acknowledging when they're winning, but giving them the opportunities. When you hire people, you can't just set and forget, you have to be constantly checking in. The other thing too is exposure at leadership, oftentimes, and it's easier a little bit now, with remote, is there used to be this corner office, it was intimidating to approach leadership. But now we all show up on the square, the same size, we're more accessible. I make sure I always stop by and say hello to everybody and there was one young woman who just started and she was like, almost caught off guard. She goes, ‘Oh my God, like the CEO came by to, to spend 10 minutes with me.’ So it's make yourself human, accessible, and check in with your teams. Make sure they're getting the mentoring, the coaching, the feedback necessary. And also, I do believe it's a healthy dose of encouragement, but tough love, right? To really get people to accelerate in their roles.
How do you approach making sure that you are spending that time checking in?
Well, it's interesting because it’s the 800-pound gorilla in the room, leadership is hard. It's a lot of work, right? It's not a 9 to 5 gig. And to your point, it's why it's not for everybody, because it's a lot of hours and it has to be a mix of both. This is how I prescribe it: anyone who's under my direct leadership report, I have very intentional one-to-one meetings. If there's weeks where I know there's traveling, the expectation is it happens, but it happens electronically. So what happens is, they will provide me an update and it's five things in five minutes, not word piece, not overly complicated, but it's that weekly cadence of a check in and it either happens in person or electronically. When it doesn't happen, I am the first to send a note. ‘Gee, I happen to notice I don't want to be chasing you.’ So setting that expectation, because otherwise, if you don't make it a cadence, then you can lose track of things and you don't even realize you do it. So that's one. Two, it's the on the spot stuff. So I know, for example, I have somebody who's maybe struggling with performance or someone who's in a new role or someone who's going through a personal situation, a health crisis, a divorce, I will every now and then, make it a point to send a quick text or a note: how are you feeling? How are you doing? Are you okay? Is there anything you need from us? So it's a blend of the professional responsibilities and expectation for performance, and KPIs with how are you as a human and a person, and is there anything you need from us?
I'm not always perfect about it, but I will say one thing I do get from feedback on is people will say I'm very tough, but I'm very empathetic and I'm very aware of the team. And if I forget, I will acknowledge it and say, ‘my God, I'm sorry, I should have known that, thank you for telling me’ or I apologize that I forgot to do that. Like, be willing to say, ‘you know what, I overlooked this, and it's my responsibility to not do that, so I'm sorry about that, let's go forward.’ But it's a little bit of both, because if you make it too formalized, you don't get the authenticity you need, and they're just going to give you the answer you want to hear, as opposed to, I'm going to tell you what's really going on.
How do you handle, balancing your, personal life or ambitions and your professional role?
So, this is such an important topic and it also speaks to women and opportunities. So, people ask me, what would you do differently if you were starting over or mentoring a young woman? We grew up in an environment, Audrey, in a generation where you had to prove yourself and it wasn't okay to practice self-care or admit or miss a meeting or whatever. And while I do work a lot of hours, I travel a lot, I prioritize certain things and those things, for example, I make sure even when I'm traveling, I get time to do exercise. I make sure that whether it's a treadmill or lifting weights in the hotel gym. I also am very careful about not indulging in alcohol or too many things that are going to be contradictive to my health. So one is practicing good health and self-care. And also, you can't do everything. One of the things they say, there's only 1 percent of the population ends up in these leadership roles. And I didn't make up this quote because 99 percent won't tolerate what it takes. And it takes away from you important things and family and all that. But what I do is there are certain things that are non-negotiable. As I'm now confident in my career, I safeguard those, but I would say, no matter who you are, you should do that. So, for example, I have an annual vacation with my whole family that's the 4th of July that everyone goes to. There's no business thing in the world more important to me than that. So I safeguard that because that feeds my soul. Things like milestone events, whether it's a wedding or something like that. there's a lot of things that you can't accept invitations to when you're a leader and you have to skip, but there's things that are just should be non-negotiable.
Also too, you realize that it's okay to negotiate times for meetings and dinners and things like that. It has to work for everybody and I think a lot of times on your leadership journey, you think you just have to say yes to every single thing all the time and just figure out. I worked a long time ago with a coach around creating your circle of life and you figure out what are the priorities, family, finance, health, those things. It could be different for everyone and you have to make sure that as you're managing your schedule and your commitments there's a balance so that you don't lose sight of those things because there's nothing worse than waking up 10 years later and realize I don't get that time back. I can't get that time back with my family or my friends or my health and so, to be the best at who you are and what you do, it means you have to start with prioritizing those things. Otherwise, when you think about burnout and you hear about that, it's because you're not safeguarding those things and then you're not effective for anybody.
Tell me a little bit about how you handle information overload. Do you have any approach to that or are you mindful of that?
I am mindful, you have to be or it will consume you. Look, I'm not perfect. I can get caught up in it too. But one thing first is, decide what your trusted sources are and they can change, right? So, I have several trusted sources: Wall Street Journal being one of them, some really good LinkedIn news being another, some industry associations or things. And what I try to do is figure out what sources of information I value and trust and try to tune everything out. Then what I do, because like anyone else, I'm human, I can get caught in scroll traps and do that. So, I set limits on my phone so it will notify me like, ‘Hey, Christine, guess what? You've been doing this too long.’ So all my applications are set to a time limit and that's my signal to know, stop, put it down. And then one thing I've done. which is a game changer because like most busy people, I'm not good at sleeping and I start to think about everything. So, I've deliberately moved all my charging stations separate from my bed. They're still in the same room, but what I found I was doing is if I got up in the middle of the night for any reason to go to the ladies, whatever, the first thing I would do is pick up that phone and then that blue lights in your face. So, I don't do that anymore and that has really helped me because when you do wake up, you're able to fall back to sleep if you're not staring at your phone, so you have to do things like that. Setting time limits on your apps, making sure you limit your amount of sources and it's interesting because I used to subscribe to everything and now I unsubscribe. I literally will unsubscribe. I always check my subscriptions and say, ‘am I using this? Does it provide anything?’ then I unsubscribe so that you help to eliminate the clutter because it does become all-consuming and overwhelming and counterproductive.
I would love to hear your experience about starting the Her Success Matters podcast and why you think it is so important to create these avenues for inclusion for women in business.
So to clarify, that I did that. I no longer do it. My primary podcast is Association Advisor, but it is important to talk about Her Success Matters. When I was a CEO in the financial services industry, this was 2020. It was really at a time where there was a heightened awareness about the lack of opportunity for women in financial services and being a new CEO in that space, I wanted to connect with women, in the space. So, it started with a male guest and it started around men as allies because there's this misconception and there's a lot of social pressure and negativity that's been associated with initiatives like this. The whole thing about being inclusive is that all parties be inclusive and so what I felt is there's lots of companies that want the allyship between men and women. When we started to do that things like: how did your journey start with some of the obstacles? What advice? What are the traits? And what happened is it resonated so strongly. We ended up doing 66 episodes. It was going to be once a month. It came out weekly and we had a four month wait list because there were so many women wanting to participate in and helping other women by sharing their stories and journeys or advice. Because oftentimes we put our own limits on ourselves. And you start to realize you're not alone.
There's lots of people just like you who went through similar journeys and challenges. When we can work together to lift each other up, everybody wins. So that's why I did it. Then because of the effectiveness of that platform, when I came into the association world, I realized in our space, there are more opportunities for women in the association world than there are in financial services, but connecting with people like you and understanding your challenges and needs and what works and what doesn't is why we relaunched the Association Advisor podcast. We focus on interviewing people to help story tell and share some of their journeys and experiences so we can all learn and improve. The most important thing, just like you're doing, I feel like the more we're willing to share and learn from each other, we all win. And there's enough for everybody to share our ideas and we can all benefit from that.
Talking about how leadership is evolving into the future, I would love to just hear your insight on what trends and challenges you think leaders will need to adapt to in the coming years?
Yeah, it's interesting and I don't think any of us have solved this, but one of the things that's interesting, in the past five years, we’re in this unusual landscape of everybody trying to figure out the remote, hybrid back in office, etc. There's a lot of strong opinions and what I say constantly is flexibility is key. It's not a onesize fits all right. Every customer isn't the same. Every employee isn't the same. Companies, to me, that prosper and thrive, even before the pandemic and all of this became a big issue, are those who provide flexibility in their environment and their working culture. If we focus on results and productivity, then the where and how matters less because every single person works and operates differently. So, one is having a flexible mindset and don't what I say is, don't be knee jerk reaction, meaning if you see a note that, ‘Oh my God, this company is having a mandate back to this.’ Don't just jump on that bandwagon, stop, pause, figure out what's going to work for your company and organization, and have a flexible environment.
The other challenge is the evolution and the acceleration of AI and the adaptiveness of AI. I think that's something that everyone is struggling with from ethical to a compliance to a productivity, and all kinds of regulatory issues. So the technology is hitting us faster than we're keeping up with how to operate within that environment. So I think that CEOs and cultures that lean into that are going to be helpful. Data is an overused word, but we have so much data available to us, but we have to get really good at listening to it and gaining insights from it and being willing to engage with the data. And when I say it's not the interpretation of the data necessarily, looking at the raw data, it's what the data is telling you and how do you adapt to that? So when I think about those things and the future, it's around what's the right culture environment? What's the right working environment? How can you be flexible in your mindset? How do you use technology and data to aid in your journey of success? Those are the core things that stay on my mind and I think I share in common with many leaders I speak to.
What would you like to be remembered in terms of your leadership and your leadership journey?
I think that you give to others as much as you take from them. One example of that is that you get comfortable having people on your leadership journey that aren't like you that are additive. For example, right now, Naylor, our executive team is comprised of someone in their 30s, all the way up to people in their, 50s and older, it's diversity of leadership in both. Everything from age to background to gender to race to religion helps you learn and see things. And so what I want to believe is, I'm a very tough, demanding person and a leader, but I want to feel and have people feel that I help them as much as they've helped me and that you're constantly putting the employees and your customers ahead of yourself so that the legacy you're leaving behind is. One thing I pride myself is that when I've changed companies, I usually get teams that follow me and that's the happiest thing. And when people work for me again, it makes me really happy because they realize that to me, the litmus test. Yes, I'm demanding, but obviously they got something out of it because they're growing their career and coming alongside for the journey.